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Thread: 458 brakes

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    Default 458 brakes

    Our 458 Italia was serviced in March and according to the service book had the brake fluid changed. We then had a spirited drive around North Yorkshire where the brakes seemed fine and the car has only been out for a few local runs since, the last couple of times hubby said it felt like the brakes weren't very responsive. Car went in for a new windscreen and we asked Stratstone to have a look at the brakes while it was in. They said the brakes seemed fine but they had performed a "bedding in procedure" which should have them at optimal performance. Last weekend hubby took the car out and found that there was loads of travel before the brakes bit and when starting the car he had to push the brake pedal down so low that he accidentally caught the accelerator. He says it feels like there's no fluid in the reservoir. There's no sign of any fluids on the garage floor to account for a leak.

    We are off to Italy a week on Saturday and are rather concerned. Waiting for a call from Stratstone as we think the brakes definitely need looking at (again!) but what do you guys think? And if Stratstone can't help us before Italy, what independent specialist in the North West of England would you recommend?

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    There was a problem with 458 master cylinders which led to a lack of braking pressure and symptoms exactly you describe. There are a few threads on 458 brake issues e.g. https://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/th...on-458.493926/

    That thread doesn't mention the root cause, but it's most likely the master cylinder issue. I really recommend your car is booked in for a check ASAP.

    N.B. I'd like to think Stratstone didn't use the pedal to bleed (i.e. pump) the brakes when they changed the fluid - this tends to flip seals and cause the same thing.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MWStewart View Post
    There was a problem with 458 master cylinders which led to a lack of braking pressure and symptoms exactly you describe. There are a few threads on 458 brake issues e.g. https://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/th...on-458.493926/

    That thread doesn't mention the root cause, but it's most likely the master cylinder issue. I really recommend your car is booked in for a check ASAP.

    N.B. I'd like to think Stratstone didn't use the pedal to bleed (i.e. pump) the brakes when they changed the fluid - this tends to flip seals and cause the same thing.
    Donít discount ICE mode mark - donít want to open too much of a can of worms but the issue is both legislative AND technology related. When ABS was simple wheel sensors alone the only issue with ABS would be it constantly triggering when driving quickly on road and track. Then when ABS was integrated with stability and traction control the sensor combos expanded massively. 458 has wheel sensors, steering angle, plus yaw, pitch, etc done gyroscopically. EU legislation has mandated these integrated systems and including making it a deliberate and difficult act to shut them off.

    Just some info on ice mode - (copied from bosch source ) Ice mode is what drivers of all car types will sometimes refer to when a sudden loss in braking power occurs. The usual explanation will describe the brake pedal going rock hard and braking power cut to maybe 20%. Further investigating will lead you to see most drivers that experience this are either left foot braking with steady quick jabs, or are just a driver who bounces back and forth on the brake very quickly (quick feet). If you add steering wheel sawing the number of sensor inputs trigger a chaotic condition and hence trigger the assumption by the systems itís a snow / ice condition.

    What is the underlying cause of ice mode? ABS. The ABS system canít keep up with the driverís inputs - solution change driving style to smooth firm but definite inputs.

    I think the OP should be able to discount this and get the master cyclinder checked out but Ice mode is mentioned a lot on a variety of forums. My humble advice is to critically evaluate your driving style. On road I drive in sport and consider it a mistake if I trigger the systems even though I like driving right up to their threshold. On track I use sport for early sessions then raise to race which is typically only triggered in a couple of locations unless itís sonewhere like the ring. Switching everything off is not something I am interested in as I donít get anything out of drifting or smoking my tyres into an early grave and the couple of tenths it normally liberates are academic. If you are triggering ICE mode on the road video your inputs with a GoPro and you will soon see habits you may not be aware of. This has gotten worse with CCMís as many folk brake in a set of pulses with them...

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    "Just some info on ice mode - (copied from bosch source ) Ice mode is what drivers of all car types will sometimes refer to when a sudden loss in braking power occurs. The usual explanation will describe the brake pedal going rock hard and braking power cut to maybe 20%. Further investigating will lead you to see most drivers that experience this are either left foot braking with steady quick jabs, or are just a driver who bounces back and forth on the brake very quickly (quick feet). If you add steering wheel sawing the number of sensor inputs trigger a chaotic condition and hence trigger the assumption by the systems itís a snow / ice condition.

    What is the underlying cause of ice mode? ABS. The ABS system canít keep up with the driverís inputs - solution change driving style to smooth firm but definite inputs. "

    WOW, that's worrying in a big way.

    If that is true then this is easily a situation where software is dictating the response of the car, and in this case reducing braking capability, i.e. reducing the safety controls that are in place to mitigate a crash. Its not beyond the realms of possibility that it could have caused and or contributed to an accident and this would open up all sorts of liability issues, e.g. the manufacture is liable of causing crash.

    Its perfectly reasonable to assume that drivers will be ham fisted/footed, unless manufacturers specify training/driving standard for all owners, which they do not, and thus induce the above response, so its perfectly reasonable to assume that the software should cater for it. You would hope that the software had been design to a suitable integrity level, however you would have to seriously question the safety assessment that specified the level, the functional design and the bounding assumptions that were made if the above was true.

    More worrying is if this type of system design/assessment/methodology is being applied at this level, what on earth is being applied to autonomous cars!

    (Apologies to hijack the thread, I trust you get you car sorted in time for your holidays!)
    Adrian

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    Interesting to read this thread and that on Ferrarichat. I've complained about my 458 brakes from day 1 and been assured they're fine by two dealers. Even in normal braking the pedal is like a block of wood with no real feeling of retardation, hot or cold and I've done the bedding in procedure numerous times without resolution. Not sure it's connected but shortly after delivery I had a low brake fluid warning on some hairpins in the hills South of Maranello, I topped it up and it's been fine since.

    A couple of months ago I was doing a test of part of the route for the forthcoming Cotswold tour and whilst I admit I was making progress on an uneven B road I had a very scary moment where the brake pedal went solid and it was touch and go to make the corner!.

    Years ago on my non-ABS 328 I had a brake problem with hard pedal and no apparent braking effect. Research showed it was a not uncommon problem, the fault being a faulty check valve in the main vacuum line from manifold to brake servo, replaced the check valve and completely resolved.

    I'm used to CCM's and no such problems on the 599's, Californias or the FF

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    Ice mode triggers when the mechanical / hydraulic capabilities of the system get overwhelemed. Remember the system is oscillating from venting / applying pressure for both anti-lock and stability purposes. Whilst the various ECU / sensors have gotten quicker at processing and able to cope with more complex applications: Witness the evolution of F1-TRAC and SCM Mannetino settings over the years - the mechanical fundamentals remain stubbornly fixed. The mode triggers when the system is running at maximum Ďcapacityí and typically loses all four wheel speed sensor readings at once. This could be due to a combo of ham fisted use and or road surface tyre condition, other sensor inputs etc. Porsche owners can opt for a Porsche motorsport ABS unit but no such upgrade is available to Ferrari. I can tell you there is a lot of debate about carbon brakes / abs / etc in the OEM community as there are two markets. Customers who really use the cars to their limits and those who wouldnít do so in a Ford Focus. I was part of a design discussion recently with a performance OEM that discussed actually having and optional (performance or touring brake choice). Ferrariís approach is to encourage participation in the Pilota program in order to eliminate such events and it has to be said that driving style can eliminate virtually all of the likely Ice mode events. If it does happen the only solution apart from a trip to the gravel / ditch is to lift brake pressure and re-apply. Scary but true.
    Finally the brake feel set-up is very different for the Mid-engined V8ís and the V12ís. The V8ís have a much harder Ďmotorsport feelí from the initial travel whereas the V12ís feel much softer initially then bite very hard and progressively.

    As I said I think the OP Had a different issue but ICE mode is much discussed on various forums but as you can imagine OEMís call it something different.

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    Answering the Indy question I can recommend AE Performance in Knutsford. Adam normally looks after older cars but this sounds like a hydraulic issue from the bleeding rather than the electronics.
    He is usually rather busy though.....

    The problem with bleeding with the pedal is you use the full travel which it doesnít normally see, so the master cylinder seals can be damaged by corrosion/contamination in the lower part of the cylinder.
    Thatís why I also use a pressure bleeder now.

    The other problems on this thread remind me of the issues I had with my car on 19Ē wheels.
    Press the pedal to shave of speed and it was solid with no braking applied. A couple of real scary moments and a complete loss of confidence.
    It was definitely ABS intervention (I donít think I have ice mode) and resolved with the right wheels and tyre sizes.
    Youíd think Ďice modeí would open everything up rather than shut it down.
    The last thing you need is you pedal not connected to the wheels!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike01606 View Post
    Answering the Indy question I can recommend AE Performance in Knutsford. Adam normally looks after older cars but this sounds like a hydraulic issue from the bleeding rather than the electronics.
    He is usually rather busy though.....

    The problem with bleeding with the pedal is you use the full travel which it doesnít normally see, so the master cylinder seals can be damaged by corrosion/contamination in the lower part of the cylinder.
    Thatís why I also use a pressure bleeder now.

    The other problems on this thread remind me of the issues I had with my car on 19Ē wheels.
    Press the pedal to shave of speed and it was solid with no braking applied. A couple of real scary moments and a complete loss of confidence.
    It was definitely ABS intervention (I donít think I have ice mode) and resolved with the right wheels and tyre sizes.
    Youíd think Ďice modeí would open everything up rather than shut it down.
    The last thing you need is you pedal not connected to the wheels!
    Itís wrong to call it a Ďmodeí which I only used because it has become an internet colloquialism for a condition. Lots of time in design you have to make decisions about failure modes - Oftentimes the failure modes and how they manifest have not even been considered in design. A recent one is a new supercar engine whose thermostat failure mode was closed! This is a schoolboy error but post action review showed it hadnít been considered in the project, the wrong part was specified and the effect wasnt found until a customer track day. I work a lot in this area and there is an established discipline called FMEA - Failure Mode and Effect Analysis that should be performed in rigourous, well funded, and time rich development projects. You would be shocked how many Ďblue chipí outfits donít do a thorough job of this in many aspects of their work. No one from any OEM would label or call this anything other than a system reaching the limits of its capabilities. The manual warns you to drive well within the limits and capabilities of the car so no joy there for any liability claims. ICE mode is only named as such because when you reach the limits of a road cars systems the effect is like driving on ice. My advice if anyone were to keep experiencing it is invest in some driving coaching on some track days at a circuit with plenty of run-off. I have seen videos of evidence of Ďice modeí and common to them is drivers that squirrel away at the wheel as if a racing car with zero systems. Most of it when you look at data traces is wholly unnecessary show boating to themselves and it adds crazy amounts of steering angle info to already complex computations / interventions. Add a four wheel lock detection that the modern systems donít even let you Ďfeelí approaching and you can see how easily the system would say ďenough alreadyĒ and be overwhelmed.

    Take it easy smooth and fast

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    So basically someone didnít do their job properly and this system fails to a dangerous state.....thatís what I meant when I said Iíd expect it to open up ie remove the driver aid and fail safe.
    If itís happening a lot it is a fully foreseeable event and shouldnít/canít be ignored. Saying change your driving style just isnít an acceptable argument.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike01606 View Post
    So basically someone didnít do their job properly and this system fails to a dangerous state.....thatís what I meant when I said Iíd expect it to open up ie remove the driver aid and fail safe.
    If itís happening a lot it is a fully foreseeable event and shouldnít/canít be ignored. Saying change your driving style just isnít an acceptable argument.
    Completely agree and I would suspect that the courts would also agree.

    If the ICE mode is what is happening and there is a crash where its proved it either a) caused the crash or b) contributed to it Ferrari will be liable under Uk law, sales of goods act etc.

    And if its something that Ferrari know about and haven't done anything about, I really would not want to be a director of that company as they could very well get measured up for little striped jump suites!!!

    If it is a know issue, then as a minimum Ferrari should be insisting that all new owners take a suitable driving course, if driving style is a mitigation to the ICE mode activating; but ultimately it should be designed out; there really is no excuse and I certainly would not sign off on anything else if I was directly involved.

    If it does happen to you, I would strongly suggest that you report all instances of it to Ferrari, in writing. There is then some evidence that they were told, if the worst comes to the worst, but off course hopefully it wont.

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