EU - in or out

[Quigs]

To add to the gloom & doom my pension pot's gone up lots and lots since Friday and it was well up by Monday before the stock market started to recover but

PS Silver360 I get your drift but I don't think we would sell Typhoons to the Chinese government. Surely they'd buy one then knock 199 copies out a few weeks later

Interesting to note over 2 years later, my pension pot has gone down and down over the last few months whilst this is now reaching a head!

[Mike01606]

Interesting to note over 2 years later, my pension pot has gone down and down over the last few months whilst this is now reaching a head!

Probably more related to the current global issues e.g. US/China trade etc but I guess it depends on where it's invested.
Anything in global markets should rise as the value of the pound falls. Mine's held very steady since the referendum (+/-2%) and I'll be watching it closely if the pounds drops next week when the deal is voted down.

[candellara]

When will the "old farts" of this nation realise that we now live in a global economy?

Pack away your stupid St George's flags and get with modern times. Britain was "once" a global power but the sands shifted many years ago. If it wasn't for the Americans we would have categorically lost WW2

Without the EU, we won't have a seat at any table and it's an Island Monkey mentality that will see the UK suffer as a result.


Go and stay in Central London for a few weeks and you'll see all of the benefits that multi culturalism brings and the fact that as and when we leave, the vast majority of you (business owners) will not be able to hire "unskilled" staff - because they'll be leaving in droves. The British underclass have no intention of working

[candellara]

FWIW, I really don't agree with the gravy train that is Brussels however, reality is that all politicians (UK included) are all in it for themselves anyhow. Free movement? How on earth will UK manufacturing and farmers etc cope without EU workers?

The latest / only "deal" argues that we won't have a "voice"! What the hell did we expect when we chose to leave!?


You cannot have your cake and eat it too. You cannot cherry pick what you do and do not want. Your either in - or out and I completely understand the EU's stance on this

[sssdu01]

I get annoyed about the free movement arguments. If we leave and end up with a ban on free movement, whoever is in government will still be able to set whatever rules they like on immigration so unlimited doctors/nurses/engineers/etc will be allowed to come and work in the UK from any country not just the EU, if we need them and they want to come.

However it is unlikely that unskilled people with low earning potential will be allowed to freely come to the UK and get housing benefit etc to subsidise low wages. Guess what if the money for nothing gravy train dries up then they wont want to come.

End of grumpy old man rant

[Nosevi]

I also understand the EU’s view. The reality though is most who voted to leave didn’t want to have their cake and eat it. Most voted that there were things more important than the cake (ie the cake being the ecconomy), something many on the remain side of the argument utterly fail to grasp. The ‘trying to have your cake and eat it’ approach is not from the Leave side of the house, it’s from the Remain side who put the economy forward as the only consideration then try to take the moral high ground which is all a bit ludicrous imo.

Having worked in countries who rely heavily, in fact nearly entirely, on imported labour for manual work and yet are not members of the EU (exactly what percentage of low-grade manual work in Kuwait do you think is undertaken by Kuwaitis - interested to know if Remainers have a clue....) I find it laughable that one side of the debate seems to think that importing labour is only possible within the EU. Go to almost any wealthy country in the Middle East, I’ve worked in several, and tell me EU membership is necessary in order to import labour.

Equally baffling is the view that the UK has a seat on the world stage due to our position within the EU. When attending lectures from Kings College we were taught that military power is merely a projection of political influence and foreign policy. The carrier battle groups we are putting together equipped with F35s together with the Trident subs which together account for a large chunk of the ‘defence’ budget are infinitely more important than our EU membership in terms of political and therefore ecconomic influence. The cost of renewing Trident, building the Elizabeth class carriers and procuring 120-140 F35s is maybe 20-25 years of net EU contributions and has the ‘devorce bill’ paling into insignificance. That money is being spent to increase our political influence around the world, anyone thinking it’s purely defence is either naive or stupid.

So, while I’m not massively anti the EU and not at all anti Europe (I was born in Germany as it happens) I find the arguments from the Remain side to be blinkered and narrow-minded, ironically the charges they level at those who voted to leave. More to the point I see it as a political decision about who you wish to be governed by and not an economic decision about who I’ll be better off under. From that angle I simply don’t think Remain occupy the moral high ground they think they are on.

[redwedge]

+1 Nosevi

...and if the fabled Second Referendum is ever held (I wouldn't put it past our politicians), the options should be:

1) The UK should remain in the EU; Westminster and the devolved parliaments shall be dissolved.

2) The result of the first referendum should be upheld.

I don't really see the point of being in the EU and having our own parliament.

[A348W]

About my sentiments as well Nos. but far more articulately put than I could do without a PO

[candellara]

I also understand the EU’s view. The reality though is most who voted to leave didn’t want to have their cake and eat it. Most voted that there were things more important than the cake (ie the cake being the ecconomy), something many on the remain side of the argument utterly fail to grasp. The ‘trying to have your cake and eat it’ approach is not from the Leave side of the house, it’s from the Remain side who put the economy forward as the only consideration then try to take the moral high ground which is all a bit ludicrous imo.

Having worked in countries who rely heavily, in fact nearly entirely, on imported labour for manual work and yet are not members of the EU (exactly what percentage of low-grade manual work in Kuwait do you think is undertaken by Kuwaitis - interested to know if Remainers have a clue....) I find it laughable that one side of the debate seems to think that importing labour is only possible within the EU. Go to almost any wealthy country in the Middle East, I’ve worked in several, and tell me EU membership is necessary in order to import labour.

Equally baffling is the view that the UK has a seat on the world stage due to our position within the EU. When attending lectures from Kings College we were taught that military power is merely a projection of political influence and foreign policy. The carrier battle groups we are putting together equipped with F35s together with the Trident subs which together account for a large chunk of the ‘defence’ budget are infinitely more important than our EU membership in terms of political and therefore ecconomic influence. The cost of renewing Trident, building the Elizabeth class carriers and procuring 120-140 F35s is maybe 20-25 years of net EU contributions and has the ‘devorce bill’ paling into insignificance. That money is being spent to increase our political influence around the world, anyone thinking it’s purely defence is either naive or stupid.

So, while I’m not massively anti the EU and not at all anti Europe (I was born in Germany as it happens) I find the arguments from the Remain side to be blinkered and narrow-minded, ironically the charges they level at those who voted to leave. More to the point I see it as a political decision about who you wish to be governed by and not an economic decision about who I’ll be better off under. From that angle I simply don’t think Remain occupy the moral high ground they think they are on.

The fact of the matter is that will be worse off out of the EU without question. If you listen to the viewpoints of any the majority of business leaders throughout the UK, the Chancellor of the Exchequer, BoE Mark Carney they are quite clear about the issues the UK will face outside of the EU - and it's far from rosy. As a business owner, we are already facing huge workforce issues - large amounts of Eastern Europeans migrating to Germany because the pound has been weakened. We've probably lost 30 to 40% of our workforce in the last two years. This will no doubt accelerate if we have no deal.

I cannot see May's plan getting through Parliament and it'll be interesting to see what happens next

[Nosevi]

The fact of the matter is that will be worse off out of the EU without question. If you listen to the viewpoints of any the majority of business leaders throughout the UK, the Chancellor of the Exchequer, BoE Mark Carney they are quite clear about the issues the UK will face outside of the EU - and it's far from rosy. As a business owner, we are already facing huge workforce issues - large amounts of Eastern Europeans migrating to Germany because the pound has been weakened. We've probably lost 30 to 40% of our workforce in the last two years. This will no doubt accelerate if we have no deal.

I cannot see May's plan getting through Parliament and it'll be interesting to see what happens next

I agree it won’t be as rosey as some make out when/if we leave........ but like I say that’s an economic argument. Many Remainers try to dress it up as a moral one and try to shout down opposing views by saying things like wanting to leave is all about Right Wing Nationalism and referencing things like the St George’s flag Many say they don’t like the EU in and of itself (as you have) but are willing to be at least partially governed by it in order to gain the economic benefits (which you essentially have). Seems like an odd moral stance to me.

But that’s the stance of many who wish to remain and that’s fine, they’re completely entitled to their view. What they fail to grasp is other people are also entitled to a view that we should govern ourselves despite the economic ‘hit’ that may bring without being labled racist. There’s very little racism in suggesting we open up our immigration to countries outside Europe, many of whom are inhabited by people of a different race, as opposed to tilting it firmly in favour or EU nationals who are predominantly of the same race as us. I’m not sure some Remainers realise quite how stupid they sound making such an argument.